My Oral History for the Powerhouse Culinary Archive

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Australian Culinary Archive
Interview Transcript (unedited): Sheridan Rogers Record No: MRS/393-126
Duration: 00:28:11

Julie Gibbs:

Sheridan Rogers:

It is Friday the 7th of October, 2022. I am in Cammeray in the beautiful home of Sheridan Rogers, who I’ve known for a long time, though we haven’t seen each other for ages and Sheridan we are going to talk briefly about your career as a cook and food communicator and writer and enthusiast and commentator. How did you start out being passionate about food?

I started out very young, actually. Probably [00:00:30] six, seven. I was always helping out in the kitchen at home and my mother was, she was a chef, a cook with quite a bit of flair and she was always experimenting and trying out new cuisines. We were introduced to a wide range of different foods. I also had a lovely Auntie Florrie, I call her, who spent a lot of time in the kitchen and she taught me how to make pastry with lard. I mean, no one makes pastry with lard these days. [00:01:00] Her date pies were superb and her apple pies as well. Then of course my parents did a lot of entertaining, because my father, celebrity Bob [Rogers], and I would actually usually be hidden in the kitchen helping out, preparing food. In a sort of way it suited my personality because I’d rather hide in the kitchen than be out there with all those celebrities.

I went to university. I [00:01:30] was very keen on English literature and I did English at Sydney University and then got a job as a cadet journalist at The Australian, which I loved, but I wasn’t there for long because, well, I had a lot of trouble with the blokes actually. They were always making passes, et cetera. I learned there how much I loved to write. I got a lot of, in those days you didn’t get a byline. I got a number of bylines on the front page [00:02:00] and a few of them were for pieces about food, which in those days was not written about.

About what year would you have been a cadet on The Australian? I think it was 1972.
So there wouldn’t have been a lot of food writing going on?

No. What happened was, because I was a cadet, they put me on the shipping news and I often had to go out to the airport and do [00:02:30] stories. It came to me very quickly that I didn’t want to

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spend my life reporting just awful things and ghastly things about other people. I wanted to do something far more positive than that. Because I had written a few pieces about food, I realized that was a possible way in. Then after that, not long after that, I got a job at the ABC actually. I met an Italian there. This Italian made a big [00:03:00] beeline for me. Then we were together for quite a while and it was through him I developed a passion for Italy, and I had to figure out whether I was going to marry him or not.

I went off to Italy, spent a year there, and then I went to London. In London, do you remember Bruce Gyngell? I came across Bruce and I’d only just got back from… I really did not want to be in London. I mean it was winter and I’d spent all summer in Perugia in Italy around the pool with the Italian boys [00:03:30] and got to London and really thought, “Oh my God, what am I going to do?” I saw Bruce because he’s a friend of my father’s. In those days, actually, he was very into macrobiotic food. He talked to me about brown rice and what it can do for you and everything to do with macrobiotic food.

He also said to me, I think he called me Sherry, actually, which I hate being called, “Now, Sherry, what are you going to do with your life?” I thought, that’s exactly the question I’ve been asking myself. [00:04:00] He said, “So what are your interests? What are your passions?” He did put me on the spot and I said, “Well, writing and cooking.” I told him that I’d come across this school in Notting Hill called Leith’s School of Food and Wine, which I’d be very keen to go to because that would help develop my interest in food. He said, “I’m going to ring your father. I’m going to tell him to put you through that cooking [00:04:30] school.” My father agreed.

He did you a big favour?

Yeah, big favour. I was there a year and I got their diploma, a diploma in Food and Wine.

Did you enjoy it?
Yeah, actually it was pretty challenging. It was rigorous?

Yeah, it was rigorous. Some of the people in that class went on to…there was one, I can’t think of her surname actually, but went on to do really, really big things. [00:05:00] Then I came back to Australia, and once again I thought, “Oh my God, what am I going to do?” There were a few people I knew who knew people at Women’s Day and introduced me to Margaret Fulton. I got a job with her and I worked

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with her for probably only 12 to 18 months. The thing with Margaret [00:05:30] was, and I really appreciate her for this reason, she said to me, “Now I want you to write my story. I want you to write the column this week because I know you’re a good writer.” She really encouraged me to start writing. That was sort of like the kickstart to getting into food writing.

You couldn’t have had a better start, could you?

No. She really did encourage me a great deal. Then after I left Women’s Day, [00:06:00] I went freelance. I did-

Can we just backtrack? Can you just tell me the stature that she had there and what being there meant? Because it was huge, wasn’t it?

Yeah. She was number one in Australia then. Actually, in fact, at that time when I was there, and I remember thinking, wow, she went on a number of trips, one of which was to India. When she came back [00:06:30] we had to test all these Indian recipes. I mean, that was sort of almost like the beginning of combining food and travel writing, although we didn’t see it like that. She would actually ask me, she might write two or three paragraphs about why she’d gone and what she discovered when she was there. It was mostly, there’s like two big A3 pages of recipes. In many ways, that was the beginning of food and travel writing. No, well, I mean, of course she [00:07:00] was already a household name when I started to work there.

The influence was massive.

Yeah, huge. The main book that she put out, the Margaret Fulton Cookbook. Yeah, that was already out.

That was published in 1968.

Wow, okay.

The first edition was.

I was there almost 10 years later and she went on to do quite a number of books after that.

She did, yeah.

Publishers [00:07:30] would come into the office and then also from time to time we’d have to cook for different people on the editorial board at the magazine.

Was Charmaine [Solomon] there or had she been…?

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No, Charmaine had just left. I’m just trying to think who was there. I wasn’t there when Margaret’s daughter [Suzanne Gibbs] was there either. She’d also left. There was a woman called Elizabeth King, and I did work with Janice Baker who became a food stylist. Can’t [00:08:00] think of anyone else at the moment. Then, as I said, I went freelance, but I did a lot of TV commercial work, in other words, food styling, because that’s where I could make some money because it was never possible to make much money from food writing. Slowly I kept working away at it. Then I actually-

How did you learn the styling?

[00:08:30] Actually I learned quite a bit at Margaret Fulton’s, in her office, because different photographers would come in, some of whom she was very fond of, she was very funny with. She’d sort of, “Oh no, no, no, no, you don’t put it there. No, no, the lighting’s wrong.” And “why did you put that there? That’s the wrong colour”, et cetera. You’d sort of just learn slowly on the job. [00:09:00] I did learn a lot from her in that way as well. We did all the photography in the office. I must say when I look back, I think got the lighting in those days was bizarre. It was just, everything was so different.

Food photography wasn’t a specialisation, was it? They had general photographers working on the…

Yeah, that’s right. General photographers. In fact, quite often the staff photographer, and I know that Margaret would often go and say, “Oh [00:09:30] no, not him again today.” She’d have to use who they had available. Quite often that particular staff photographer really had no idea and didn’t care. I also learned a lot from that as well. Then there came the era of the food photographer after that. Also, food writing was not, certainly wasn’t what it is today. It wasn’t the thing.

No, no. So you were right there at the start?

Yeah, right in there. Anyway, [00:10:00] I sort of kept at that, but I think I probably did a lot of food styling for a long time. As I say, that was a good way to make money. Then about towards the end of the eighties, I was actually offered a position at Mode Magazine and that sort of really actually set me up. Then I would say that my food writing career sort of went forward.

Who was the editor there?

That was Lorraine Brown at the time. Do you remember? Did you know Lorraine?

No, [00:10:30] not really.

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Yeah, she was the editor and she was it the whole time. Then along came Good Weekend and Shelley Gare was the editor.

I know Shelley.

Then there were various… I kept freelancing for different magazines. Then I got a position at the Sun-Herald when Andrew Clark was there. Then that became the Sunday Life Magazine, the colour magazine.

That’s right.

[00:11:00] Anyway, these days, so because actually all of us as journalists, we all lost our jobs. I hate this word, but we really did have to reinvent ourselves. So I do these kids cooking classes.

That’s so wonderful because children have to learn to cook. That’s such a vital life skill, isn’t it?

That’s what I they were just saying on the radio…I’ve got to go back and listen to that program again actually because the question was how did you [00:11:30] learn to cook? Look, it’s a very important life skill. In fact, I’ll tell you how I started the classes was because my son, who I told you, he’s got these two very successful restaurants in New York; when he left school, I said to him, “Look, you’re going to need some…” He wanted a gap year in Europe. I said, Well, you’re going to need something, some way to be able to earn some money when you’re traveling around.” I suggested to him that he do a bar course and I put him through the Steadman’s [00:12:00] bar course, which I think was only a week or so. He really enjoyed that. Then I said, “You’re going to need to know how to cook yourself a few dishes.” He’d always been hanging around the kitchen anyway. I just taught him a number of basic things.

What did you teach him?
Really basic.
What you thought he needed to know.

Well, spaghetti bolognese, I taught him a lot of stir fries. I probably taught him how [00:12:30] to cook steak properly because a lot of people don’t know how to do that. Some soups and not so many desserts, but how to make a good soup. Suddenly, all his mates wanted to come along too. That’s actually how the idea began. That was the idea of the kids’ cooking classes. I’m not actually teaching that age group these days because I found if you have boys and girls together in a cooking class who are 16, [00:13:00] 17, they’re only interested in each other.

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They’re not going to be interested in what you’ve got to say.

Unless of course it’s a really serious cooking school. Anyway, so that’s how that… I’d have to put my mind back to exactly what I taught him. He’s not a chef in his restaurants. He’s the entrepreneur, he’s put it all together and et cetera. He’s really, he’s fantastic in the kitchen. Just has this lovely easy way in the kitchen and cooks really well. [00:13:30] I’m very proud of him. I think obviously roast chicken, I mean really basic things. In fact, I’d heard them talking about roast chicken on the program probably. I taught him how to make chicken stock, which I think is really important. I always ask the kids in the class if they know how to make chicken stock and none of them ever know. Well it’s very rare that they do.

That’s how you have a soup. Interesting. It’s also very good for you. Chicken soup.

Absolutely. Sheridan [00:14:00] who were your peers, who was in your circle of influence that have been your colleagues along the way?

That’s a good question because I’ve always worked freelance, and I’ve always worked from home, except when I was working in Margaret’s office. The girls I was working with there, Janice Baker went on to become a stylist, as I said. She did actually publish a couple of books, [00:14:30] in fact. The others drifted away from food. There was another girl called Katie Highfield who…but she ended up doing a lot of catering. She didn’t become a food writer. I think I just sort of went along on my own. I looked to people like Elizabeth David and Jane Grigson as writers and also Julia Child. I had all those Penguin books, which are very thumbed through. [00:15:00] They would’ve been my role models. Of course, because I’d been at an English cooking school, well, Elizabeth David was quite prominent, but also I was very interested in Italian but…Carluccio…though he didn’t come along until later.

I’ll have to think about who were my peers in those days. Of course then along came Stephanie [Alexander], et cetera. She was a chef during that period. She wasn’t doing so much writing, but then [00:15:30] suddenly she burst forth.

The food writing became crucial for any publication, didn’t it?

Yeah. Well, so I got that position at Good Weekend and I remember I said, “God Shelley, that’s going to be challenging.” “I just want a short grab”, she said. She wanted very, very few words. I think it was 300 words at the most, including a recipe. [00:16:00] Can you imagine?

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That’s a challenge.

So challenging. Anyway, I did it and I don’t know if you should put this in the thing, but I’ll never forget Lyndon telling me…I’d sort of wound up at Good Weekend by that stage after it been this little tiny thing. I’ll never forget him telling me, “Mum Neil [Perry] is so desperate to get that column in…” [00:16:30] So desperate.

No, I think that’s a good observation because that was how people were getting known. That’s what you came to have to do as a chef is get a profile. That was Neil doing his job in a way.

Yeah. No, he did well at that.

Of having to get an audience and tell people what you stand for and what you’re about to get them in order to get them to come to your restaurant. What about social media Sheridan? What have you observed [00:17:00] about that onslaught?

Okay, so I’ve got Facebook, I’ve got a little mini chef Facebook page for my kids cooking classes. I am on Instagram. Look, I can’t stand all this stuff about being an influencer and… Anyway, I don’t want to, in other words, play that game so I don’t play it.

[00:17:30] It has become such a mode of publication, hasn’t it?

Yeah. I do have my own webpage. I mean that’s actually quite a lot of work. In fact, I’m going to put something up on the weekend, it’s a written piece. It always takes me a while to do those. I do put a recipe up a week, so it’s not as if I’m not doing something.

No, that’s your newsletter come blog come way of keeping people engaged.

[00:18:00] Interestingly, amongst my personal friends, I don’t know, oh, there’s Veronica but she creates webpages. I don’t know anyone in my personal sphere who actually has their own webpage. Yeah, I tell people that’s my crossword because it is, it’s quite challenging to put it, especially at the moment, it’s been completely overhauled and I have to learn how to use this new system. Yeah, it’s really, [00:18:30] really tricky.

What would you say is your own signature of Australian food? What does that mean for you?

This sounds cliched though, but fresh, seasonal, from the garden. I was always really big on all that. Actually I initiated the community vegetable garden, which is just over the road. There’s a really

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beautiful one over there. I [00:19:00] always had a vegetable garden. I don’t have one at the moment because we’ve got that one over in the park. I was always growing different herbs and vegetables. Definitely fresh, seasonal, from the garden. In fact, I remember writing an article called, “Does Your Garden Spill Onto your Table?” That was always big for me.

That’s a lovely title. Good question. [00:19:30] What would your signature dishes be?

Well, actually obviously the Italian connection. One thing I really love to make just because it’s really simple and it’s like a pantry staple is a spaghetti, but with good quality spaghetti, not rubbish. Garlic and chilli in the pan first in olive oil, then you’ll add [00:20:00] good quality tuna that’s in olive oil. Cook the spaghetti, keep a little bit of the pasta cooking water, and then combine all that with lemon juice. Then lots of fresh rocket or freshly shredded sorrel I love to put through it. I much prefer sorrel fresh. I hate the colour it goes when it’s cooked.

It goes a dark, slimy colour, doesn’t it?

Yeah. Shredded on the top of this [00:20:30] tuna with chilli and garlic pasta is really, really delicious. That’s definitely a staple, that one. Lyndon actually was here in April. He brought my granddaughter actually, six-year-old granddaughter. I thought, “Gosh, Lyndon, where did you learn that?” He said, “Oh, just from this Italian chef mum who’s on Instagram.” He follows him on Instagram. I started following him and actually … because she just likes very basic, because she’s only six, she’s always eating lots… They give her lots of broccoli and she [00:21:00] eats it. This was just pasta with lemon zest and I think a bit of lemon juice and pasta cooking water and grated Parmesan. It was absolutely delicious. So few ingredients, but just delicious. Then she had the steamed broccoli as well with that.

That’s all she needed.

Yeah. She’s got a little bit of a sophisticated taste. I don’t think I would do that in a cooking class for the kids here, because I think they’d want [00:21:30] something a bit, something with, well I don’t think they’d really go for something with just lemon zest and lemon juice through the pasta.

Just go back, just tell me a bit about that formative time in Italy for you. You were in Perugia?

I was just completely blown away by Italy and I actually have spent a lot of time going back there. That time in Italy was not so much about

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cooking, although of course I was absolutely [00:22:00] fascinated by everything I was exposed to. I had actually gone there to further my language skills at Perugia University and I stayed with a family but under the house more or less. I actually, unfortunately, and this is unfortunate, they didn’t offer to me to share their meals with them, which is a shame. That was a shame.

[00:22:30] I actually learned a lot from Giancarlo, who was my Italian boyfriend here before I went. He was a really fantastic Italian cook. One of the things he would make that I really remember is risotto with the prawns, but the prawns cooked. He would make the broth with the prawn shells and he’d use that to flavour the rice and then he’d put the pawns back in. [00:23:00] I’d never seen anyone do that before. Actually back then, he was the first one who introduced any of us to tiramisu because he had a friend who was at Marrickville in those days. We used to go out there on Sunday mornings to Paesanella Cheese Factory. No one had heard of mozzarella when we used to go there. No one had heard, well very few just see Italians who lived around Leichardt would all go there on Sunday mornings.

You [00:23:30] could actually go in and you could see the ricotta being scooped off the top and the curds and the whey being separated, these huge vats. I’d never been into a cheese factory before that. These were really early days. Umberto who ran the factory, he introduced mozzarella and stracchino and a lot of those fresh Italian cheeses to Australia. Giancarlo introduced [00:24:00] me to that. Then he would take me on a Saturday morning shopping in Leichardt when the butchers were still there, none of that’s there anymore now. It’s so sad. I’d go with some of his friends, Franco Belli, and we’d all go and it’s such fun being with Italians. They’ve really got… They know how to live life, I think.

Yeah, I agree.

The other thing he used to cook actually, but this was with his French friend, they used to cook fresh sardines and I really, really [00:24:30] enjoyed them. We didn’t have those at home. People weren’t cooking those.

Your story is like that of most of the other people I talk to, which is that our food is food that’s come from elsewhere.

Yeah. I’ll tell you what, my father’s mother, so she used to make, and I used to love it as a child under the age of 10, she’s English, but she was not a good cook. She made [00:25:00] a really fabulous golden syrup steamed pudding. I love that. Actually when I asked children in

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the classes, “Do you know what a steamed pudding is?” They have no idea.

No one makes it anymore, do they?

No. The trouble is in a kid’s cooking class, because three hours, I don’t really have time. Well, I might have time to do one, but I mean you’ve got to steam it. I might have a go at that. Yeah, no, it’s interesting. I think she used to make that lovely roly-poly [00:25:30] one too. Then my mother’s mother would make…they were very plain cooks, but she made those lovely jam, those with the jam in the middle sugar, sugary biscuits with jam in the middle.

You make a little thumbprint in the middle and fill it with jam.

Yeah, that’s right.

That’s a very Anglo heritage that you had.

Very. Yeah, my father’s mother was English and then my mother was, well, she’s very Australian actually.

Then you were influenced by food from everywhere else.

Yeah. Well [00:26:00] then, as I said, my mother she’d get the magazines and she’d attempt to do some of the recipes and actually it wasn’t just Australian magazine, she always had McCall’s magazine, which is the American magazine. We got that and the American House and Garden as well. Yeah, they came in regularly into the house. I’d always look forward to going through those.

You were a media family.

I’ll say.

You knew what was going on. [00:26:30] Is there anything else you want to add about your food journey Sheridan? Has it been a good life?

Yes, but it hasn’t been easy to earn a living writing about food, which is why I said I did a lot of food styling in television commercials.

That’s an important point.

Yeah. I’d like to write something very personal, [00:27:00] but I’m not quite sure at the moment which way to go because there’s so much now. It’s almost like it’s pretty busy and perhaps it’s even overcrowded, I don’t know.

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Well food now is entertainment.

Yeah, actually that’s true. Quite right. It’s entertainment. Yeah, you’re right. Do you know what? That’s very interesting you said it because [00:27:30] that is never where I came from. I had a much more genuine interest in that and I was also very interested in the history of food. I must admit some of those television shows like My Kitchen Rules, I just find them loathsome actually.

Well, that is the entertainment side of it, isn’t it? I know, yeah.
It’s turned into something else.
Yeah completely [00:28:00] different.

Well, I look forward to seeing what personal writing you do. That might be a good place to leave it. Thank you.

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